It has now been more than four years since the Taliban retook control of Afghanistan in August 2021. During that time, they have steadily escalated restrictions on the rights of women and girls—from banning girls from secondary education to barring women from most sectors of the workforce. These restrictions were codified in the 2024 Law on the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, which went so far as to ban women’s voices from being heard in public. Many are now referring to the situation in Afghanistan as one of “gender apartheid.”

In this interview, Nargis Nehan discusses Afghanistan’s descent into gender apartheid. Nargis Nehan served as minister of mines and petroleum in Afghanistan before being forced to flee the country after the Taliban takeover. She is now an advocate for the rights of Afghan women and girls. She recently contributed to a report by the nonprofit organization Farageer based on a survey of 600 women and 100 men across 14 provinces of Afghanistan, which provides first-person accounts of life under Taliban rule.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

Farageer’s new report presents the testimonies of Afghan women about their experience living under Taliban rule. Are there any testimonies that stand out to you that capture the experience of living under the Taliban as a woman or girl right now?

One woman told us, “As a woman in Afghanistan, you are like a zombie. People get nervous when women are talked about or even mentioned. You are sidelined and avoided.” This is so true. Even for many in the international community, women in Afghanistan have become like zombies. They know that if they talk about Afghan women, they will be in trouble, so they avoid discussions of Afghan women.

Another respondent said, “If I go out and the Talibs create problems for me, I will not be allowed to return home. They [my family] will kill me.” The Taliban’s Law on the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice puts pressure on families to police women themselves. I heard about a brother who beat his sister eight times because she did not obey the new rules. He was trying to stop her from going to school. So women face not only Taliban restrictions but also violence inside their homes.

This shows how Taliban ideology is seeping into society—what I call Talibanization. More than three million boys now attend madrassas. How are we going to deal with them? How is the world going to deal with them? Because they will not remain inside Afghanistan, and when they don’t accept us fully covered with the scarf as good Muslims, how are they going to accept the world outside Afghanistan that to them will seem un-Islamic? This is a time bomb.

The report states that there’s no evidence that the Taliban are moderating their ideology; on the contrary, they may even be intensifying it. It argues that this is because the “oppression of women’s rights and the subjugation of women is central to the Taliban regime’s political project of social control” and “regime maintenance.” Could you talk about how the Taliban’s subjugation of women is part of their broader project for political control? And what implications does this have for any hopes of reversing these Taliban policies?

The Taliban are an ideological group. For 20 years they have claimed that society is corrupted and in need of purification—with women at the center of that narrative. If they reverse their laws now, they would face backlash from their own foot soldiers. They would ask their leaders, What did we fight for in 20 years? They also fear that loosening restrictions would push their foot soldiers toward ISIS, which competes with them.

They also know Afghan women are the only group they cannot bend. The Taliban are stubborn for power, and Afghan women are stubborn for their rights. During the peace process in Doha before the Taliban took control, women were the only group confronting them—about their suicide attacks, their double politics, about everything. One of my contacts who had access to their inner circle told me the Taliban leaders admit they are scared of women: if you give them one right, they will demand the next, and the next. So their solution is to close the door completely.

At the same time, they tell people the bans are “temporary.” They claim that in a few years, once they have their own madrassas, teachers, and curriculum, girls will return to school—but only under their system, not one shaped by the West. This is just buying time.

Some hope change will come if the supreme leader is removed or dies. I doubt it. For the Taliban, it is not about compromise. It is about power and control and ensuring women never become a challenge to their power.

It’s now been four years since the Taliban took over Afghanistan, and that also means it’s been four years since you were forced to leave the country. Did you imagine that four years later you would still be away? Has Taliban rule played out more or less as you expected, or has it surprised you in any way?

There were several misconceptions I initially had that I realized later on. My first misconception was that there was no support for the Taliban and we could fight them with the support of regional countries and the West. But after a few months, it became clearer that the US and West were inclined toward normalizing their relations with the Taliban, expecting the Taliban would grant some rights to women and treat them differently than the previous time. We kept documenting, raising awareness and having meetings and discussions, but the more we engaged, the more we could see that the focus was on trying to engage with and legitimize the Taliban.

My second misconception was that regional countries would not cooperate with the Taliban because of ideological and religious differences. But Iran and others quickly engaged, often more proactively than the West, even competing over who has better relations with the Taliban. This came as a shock to me.

Another surprise was the Taliban’s governance. Last time they were fully isolated from the international system. But this time they came with political ambition, demanding global acceptance without compromise. I also did not expect them to stay in power without facing military pressure. But no one wants to support any resistance or opposition against them.

I’d like to talk specifically about the role of the UN in promoting women’s rights in Afghanistan. The head of the UN mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) has just ended her tenure, so there will be a new leader for the mission. Next year there will also be a new UN secretary-general. If you were meeting with these new UN leaders, what would you recommend to them?

They should engage with the Taliban differently. I would say don’t promote your engagement and allow the Taliban to use that to demonstrate to the people that they have your support. From the start, countries should have agreed to meet them if needed, but no photos, no publicity, nothing that normalizes them while they deny girls schooling and ban women from work. If there had been a united approach—engagement tied to change—the Taliban would have realized that this is not acceptable, it’s not something we can normalize.

That’s why a principled stand is very important: continuous and rigorous engagement with Afghan women and civil society, and also with other Afghan political factions. The Taliban represent only a small faction. Meeting women publicly, supporting them, and refusing Taliban demands to exclude them are essential. In the third round of the Doha peace talks between the international community and the Taliban, women and civil society were not invited in order to get Taliban to the meeting. The UN should be bolder in negotiating with the Taliban on human rights. The Taliban need to see that their honeymoon is over; now every action is going to come with accountability.

The UN must also work with credible Afghan organizations inside the country on the delivery of humanitarian and development assistance. If the Taliban want to suppress women, then show them how we are empowering them. Empowerment can take different forms: providing them a stage to speak or resources for them to deliver to their communities. This support will allow Afghan women to demonstrate leadership to the people—showing how we are raising our voices and are there to serve our communities at this challenging time.

Considering how many restrictions the Taliban have imposed on women’s ability to organize, what does the landscape of women’s organizations look like now in Afghanistan?

The reality is that despite the brutality of the Taliban regime—where speaking one word against them can make you disappear that same night—people are still resisting. Communities, men and women, are still collaborating with Afghan women’s organizations.

Much of it happens quietly, inside houses: training, dialogues, economic empowerment and peacebuilding projects. Numbers are smaller than before, but they persist. Men in communities often protect these efforts—even if one man wants to report them, others stop him. I see that as another form of resistance.

I keep saying, the Taliban have banned women from everything. Yet we still managed consultations with 600 women for the Farageer report. Other organizations continue to meet women, and we even bring women and youth online to speak at events. This is possible because so many women have free spirits that refuse to accept the bans, and they keep finding ways to defy them.

You’ve described the dire situation for Afghan women, yet Iran and Pakistan are forcing Afghan refugees back into the country, and the US is ending temporary protected status for Afghans. What would be your message to leaders who claim it’s safe for Afghans to return?

Until the situation in Afghanistan changes, no one can convince Afghans to stop migrating. In the past four years, about eight million have left. A small number—the lucky ones—have resettled with documentation and are starting a new life in exile. But most remain stuck in limbo in Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Indonesia, and elsewhere, with no papers and no future, unable to return.

If the world wants to stop the influx of refugees from Afghanistan, they need to make it safe for us to live there. Before 2021, the country was weak and insecure, but there was still hope, and most of us stayed. That hope is gone. Creating the space to work, move, and build a future is the only way to get Afghans to stay inside their country. People need support that allows them to continue their daily life.

There is also a larger question: Are we, after 25 years of the women, peace, and security agenda, ready to let gender apartheid be normalized? If the answer is no, then the situation in Afghanistan must change.

Why do you think it’s important to use the term “gender apartheid,” and why are you and others calling for it to be codified as a crime against humanity?

The international crimes of gender persecution and gender-based violence only hold individuals accountable. There is no provision in international law to hold a state accountable for institutionalized discrimination against women and girls. That’s why we are pushing for recognition of gender apartheid—because that’s what Afghan women are experiencing.

People often compare it to South Africa’s racial apartheid, but the Taliban’s laws impose even harsher restrictions on women than Black people faced under South Africa’s system. If we don’t codify gender apartheid now, we risk seeing other forms—racial, religious, or otherwise—emerge elsewhere.

If Nelson Mandela were alive today, I believe he would say, We fought racial apartheid, now it is time to fight gender apartheid. He would campaign day and night at the UN, demanding recognition. The world must build on his legacy.

This campaign is Afghan women’s contribution to global justice. It shows we are not just victims but leaders. We are resisting the Taliban, but also demanding provisions in international law so no woman anywhere will face systematic discrimination simply because of her gender. Codifying gender apartheid will be historic—it will ensure the suffering of Afghan women is recognized and that their struggle leaves a legacy for women everywhere.